TPAC 2025, ARIA F2F: update on Open UI intiatives with accessibility implications

[smhigley]

Here's a gist for the agenda with info, discussion points, and links: https://gist.github.com/smhigley/d370d79e52015cb011685f2cf8b80eca

[css-meeting-bot]

The ARIA Working Group just discussed Updates from Open UI, Part 4.

The full IRC log of that discussion

<ZoeBijl> topic: Updates from Open UI, Part 4
<ZoeBijl> GitHub: https://github.com//issues/2665
<ZoeBijl> author’s CSS would dicate this behaviour
<ZoeBijl> the proposal is for authors to switch from vertical to horizontal
<ZoeBijl> MK: ??
<ZoeBijl> what if they would do both
<ZoeBijl> would it be up to the author to say both orientations do the same thing?
<ZoeBijl> SH: my question is to switch orientation to match what people do with this control
<jamesn> ack Jamie
<ZoeBijl> JT: i don’t see an issue with question 1
<ZoeBijl> for question 2
<ZoeBijl> should we change the keyboard orientation
<ZoeBijl> ??
<ZoeBijl> aria-orientation keyboard support is sparse
<ZoeBijl> but let’s assume it will be at some point
<ZoeBijl> i’m making an assumption without backing
<ZoeBijl> but i assume most users will use up|down regardless of orientation
<front-endian-jane> q+
<ZoeBijl> SH: i don’t think there is the equivalant now in the base control
<ZoeBijl> JC: and LTR and RTL
<jamesn> ack cyns
<Zakim> cyns, you wanted to ask if these are ever 2D?
<ZoeBijl> CS: just wondering if ??
<Jamie> s/if ??/if these might ever be 2 dimensional/
<ZoeBijl> whenever i encouter that in a control it makes me happy
<ZoeBijl> SH: ??
<ZoeBijl> JT: we shouldn’t do the keyboard thing then
<ZoeBijl> CS: *something about a tree*
<lucasradaelli> what is the command to enter in the queue?
<spectranaut_> s/SH: ??/SH: there isn't a lot of consensus for 2d, but there is more consensus for horizontal select/
<Jamie> s/SH: ??/SH: There is a proposal for 2 dimensional select, but there's less consensus on that/
<ZoeBijl> Jane: i’ve come across plenty of 2D selects
<ZoeBijl> it would be appear to some users as only one column
<ZoeBijl> MK: there is a solution to that
<ZoeBijl> you wrap at the bottom of the column
<Jamie> q+ to note that 2d select could be exposed as a grid instead of a listbox
<ZoeBijl> that’ll allow you to always hit all items
<ZoeBijl> JF: that can cause confusion with many items
<ZoeBijl> s/Jane/JF/
<jarhar> q?
<ZoeBijl> ack front-endian-jane
<ZoeBijl> *short discussion about colour and emoji pickers*
<jamesn> ack Jamie
<Zakim> Jamie, you wanted to note that 2d select could be exposed as a grid instead of a listbox
<ZoeBijl> JT: a 2D select we would probably expose the semantics differently
<ZoeBijl> maybe say table rather than list
<ZoeBijl> it would help solve it
<ZoeBijl> MK: it would
<jarhar> q+
<ZoeBijl> SH: ??
<ZoeBijl> MK: if it is possible to wrap a 2D…
<ZoeBijl> i think i agree with Jamie
<jamesn> q+
<jamesn> ack jarhar
<ZoeBijl> from a discoverability perspective a 2D ??
<ZoeBijl> Joey: it seems like maybe it is the wrong type of primitive?
<ZoeBijl> ??
<sarah> q+
<ZoeBijl> JN: it may be good…
<ZoeBijl> it would be good for discoverability to ??
<Adam_Page> q+
<jamesn> ack Jamie
<jamesn> ack me
<jamesn> ack sarah
<ZoeBijl> SH: this is a thing we’ve run into for non-select grids
<ZoeBijl> people want to ??
<front-endian-jane> q+
<ZoeBijl> not everyone is happt about that all of the time
<ZoeBijl> i do think there’s a mechanism for us to ask authors if this is a declaritive ??
<ZoeBijl> if we think we can make grids/2D selects accessible
<ZoeBijl> i will make a non-TPAC thing
<front-endian-jane> q-
<ZoeBijl> General agreement.
<spectranaut_> s/non-TPAC thing/non-TPAC issue/
<jamesn> ack Adam_Page
<ZoeBijl> AP: for the select element the UI is presented
<ZoeBijl> the author can’t hijack the role?
<ZoeBijl> so the wrapper
<ZoeBijl> SH: there is na internal toggle
<ZoeBijl> but no they can’t the popup at all
<ZoeBijl> SH: ?2
<ZoeBijl> is the conclusion to built this into select?
<ZoeBijl> or should be a different element?
<ZoeBijl> MK: wouldn’t it be simpler if its the same element?
<jarhar> q+
<ZoeBijl> SH: yea
<ZoeBijl> ack jarhar
<ZoeBijl> JA: i thought some more about ??
<ZoeBijl> we should have this attribute (??)
<ZoeBijl> it’s a semantic thing that eblongs in the HTML
<ZoeBijl> but with auto and base appearance
<Adam_Page> q+
<ZoeBijl> understanding saying there’s no native macOS popup that’s a grid
<ZoeBijl> so we can’t do this
<ZoeBijl> so i think the best way to do this is to not use select and make your own element
<ZoeBijl> AP: i’m wondering if a third value like mixed or ?? proposed?
<ZoeBijl> JN: it’s been proposed before
<ZoeBijl> i proposed it for a slider before
<ZoeBijl> MK: a 2D slider
<spectranaut_> ack Adam_Page
<jarhar> summary of what i was saying: i think that adding an HTML opt in to the select element to make the picker a grid could be tough to get into HTML because the select element supports native appearance and base appearance, and i would expect the response from whatwg to be not to add it because native platforms like macos might not have a grid popup
<jarhar> for that native control
<ZoeBijl> SH: my takeaway is: i will organise a aria wg ??
<ZoeBijl> it could be applicable for styleable select
<ZoeBijl> for now tentative yes for arrow as a non replacing thing for aria-orientation=horizontal
<ZoeBijl> *everyone laughs at scribe*
<spectranaut_> s/i will organise a aria wg ??/i will organise a aria issue to discuss arrowing through grid content that is represented as a list/